An exclusive Interview with Mr. Geir T. Tonstol, ILO Country Director
Geir has been serving as the ILO Country Director in Pakistan since January 2023. He began his career with the ILO in 2003 in Geneva, spending seven years at the organization's headquarters. During his time in Geneva, he worked at the Bureau for Gender Equality before moving to the regional office in Ethiopia.
PO: Geir in Pakistan – Expectations and Reality Geir:
“Well, honestly, I did not know what to expect. I never imagined that I would get the opportunity to work in Pakistan. The country office here is unique compared to many of our other offices. In most cases, an ILO office covers a cluster of countries, but here, we focus solely on Pakistan. However, I soon realized that working in Pakistan is like working in five different countries simultaneously.
Our work involves collaborating with the Departments of Labour of all provinces, and each province has its distinct dynamics. This makes the work both challenging and fascinating. At the same time, this role has allowed me to explore and appreciate the beauty of this country.”
PO: What does the ILO do? Geir:
“The ILO has been present in Pakistan since 1970, with a core mandate of promoting Decent Work. This means creating a world of work where people can secure employment under conditions of freedom, security, equity, and human dignity. Our approach is tripartite, working closely with the government, employers, and workers’ organizations under the Decent Work Country Program. In Pakistan, we focus on four key priority areas: job creation to enhance employment opportunities, social protection to ensure safeguards for workers, international labor standards to promote fair and just labor policies, and occupational safety to improve workplace conditions. These priorities drive our efforts to support a fair and inclusive labor market across the country.”
PO: What is the The World Day of Social Justice?
Geir: “The World Day of Social Justice was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly as a way to highlight the importance of inclusion, equality, and fairness in achieving social development. For the ILO, this day holds special significance because social justice is at the very core of our mandate. The ILO itself was established in 1919 as part of the peace agreement following World War I, based on the belief that universal and lasting peace must be built on the principles of social justice. In the world of work, we often say that labor rights are a direct projection of social justice. This includes protecting workers across all sectors, including those in high-risk industries such as mining and shipbreaking, which makes the ILO’s role even more crucial. In 2023, the ILO Director-General launched an initiative to build momentum around social justice, and Pakistan was one of the first countries where the government, employers’ organizations, and trade unions formally signaled their commitment by joining this coalition. This demonstrates Pakistan’s strong dedication to advancing social justice at all levels.”
PO: Is Pakistan socially just? Geir:
“Let’s start with a positive note. The ILO has a catalog of international labor standards that we encourage countries to ratify. Pakistan has ratified 36 out of the 191 conventions, with the last ratification being in 2006. However, we are optimistic, as Pakistan is now in the process of ratifying three important conventions: on labor statistics, maritime labor, and bonded labor. The Minister for Overseas Pakistanis will be traveling to Geneva next month to take this forward, which is a positive development.
However, in my view, social inequalities are most glaring in areas where people do not have the freedom to choose their work. Many are trafficked or coerced into labor. With the recent ratifications, there’s now more leverage to fight such injustices in Pakistan. Another area of concern is child labor, which, despite the conventions ratified, remains a significant issue in Pakistan.
Although challenges persist, we are encouraged by a renewed focus from the government on tackling child labor, bonded labor, and increasing female participation in the workforce. Female labor force participation in Pakistan is one of the lowest in the Asia-Pacific region, and part of the reason is that workplaces are not conducive to women. Issues like violence and harassment often discourage women from seeking employment. This is why we are working closely with the government to ratify the ILO Convention on Workplace Harassment in the World of Work.
These are global issues, and Pakistan is not immune to them. From the ILO’s perspective, we address the social justice agenda through the lens of ensuring equality of opportunity, fair distribution of resources, and just transitions. One of the major challenges in Pakistan is that 72% of the workforce operates in the informal sector, where they have no rights or protections. They are not registered or members of unions, and we would like to formalize this large workforce, ensuring they are registered, pay taxes, and, in return, gain access to social protection, security, and other benefits. After the 2022 floods, the absence of social protection made the situation even worse, leading to a dramatic rise in child labour. This underscores the importance of extending social protection to the most vulnerable in society.”
PO: Pakistan and the informal sector – a big problem?
Geir: “Well, it would be fair to say that neither the ILO nor the government is doing enough to formalize the informal sector—it’s undoubtedly a massive challenge. One of the key obstacles is the lack of awareness surrounding this issue. To address this, we’re focusing on raising awareness, particularly among policymakers. If we include the agriculture sector, around 80% of the workforce in Pakistan is in the informal sector. Yet, there’s still a lack of recognition of this challenge, and not enough is being done to tackle it. We want to collaborate with the government to increase awareness about this issue.
We’ve also been working with domestic workers, helping them set up unions so that they can have a voice and negotiate for better conditions. The transition from informal to formal work isn’t a straightforward one, but it’s a journey that needs to start somewhere, step by step.
In the mining sector, the situation is particularly troubling, especially with private operators where workers often labor informally and have little to no access to social protection.
Unfortunately, fatalities in the mining sector are a weekly occurrence, which highlights the urgency of the matter. In response, we’re focused on unionizing workers so they can negotiate for access to minimum wages, proper equipment, safety measures, and their basic rights. The same applies to the shipbreaking sector. We’re working hard to sensitize employers, train workers, and provide necessary equipment to improve safety and working conditions.
All of this is being done in close collaboration with the government. While more could certainly be done, I do see the commitment and willingness from the government. The ILO has a unique relationship with the government here—I can simply send a WhatsApp message to the minister, and he’ll respond. I really appreciate the government’s responsiveness and cooperation.”
PO: AI, Automation, Digitization and Pakistan What is the future like?
Geir: The whole debate on AI is full of dilemmas, especially in a country like Pakistan, where fundamental labour issues still persist—Workers in mines are daily exposed to hazardous working conditions, often leading to fatalities.” Bringing the AI debate into this context can be tricky because one common response is that we need to deal with these pressing issues first. However, AI and technological advancements are not going to wait, so Pakistan must engage with these developments head-on.
I believe AI has the potential to be put to excellent use in Pakistan. There is often a fear that AI will lead to job losses, but historically, automation has boosted productivity, strengthened economies, and, in turn, created new job opportunities. However, one of the key concerns for the ILO is accountability—digitization often blurs the lines around who the actual employee is. If something goes wrong, who is responsible? This lack of clarity poses a significant challenge to labour rights and protections.
Another major concern is the digital divide. A large segment of the population in Pakistan still does not have access to something as basic as the internet, while another segment is advancing rapidly in the digital space, locally and more so globally. This growing gap between the two extremes risks deepening social and economic inequalities. The challenge, therefore, is to ensure that digital advancements benefit everyone, rather than widening the disparities that already exist in the labor market.”
